Question about the dinner with Bob Strassler
Hello Rob, Nancy, Kendall, Pat and Andre.
It is great that you got to spend an evening with Bob Strassler. I am
wondering how the question/answer part of the evening went. In
particular, was Bob able to answer any of the groups questions (see
below)? If any of you have the time, would you please summarize what
you learned from Bob?
That would really be valuable. I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you! -Laurel
Laurel Stanley, 616 464-8747 Web Design Manager, Marketing
laurel.stanley@priority-health.com
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—–Original Message—– From: Phil Terry [mailto:pterry@creativegood.com] Sent: Thursday,
August 24, 2006 10:31 AM To: Laurel Stanley Subject: Re: your questions for Bob Strassler?
Hello Phil,
My questions for Bob are:
1. It is easy as readers to want to draw conclusions of how this text
relates to current events and wars. In his opinion, what does he think
about trying to make connections between Thucydides History of the
Peloponnesian War and today’s events? And what does he think are the
biggest take-a-ways that we can learn from Thucydides?
2. What initially made Bob want to tackle making the Landmark Edition?
Thank you Phil. Have a great time tonight! I wish that I could be there.
-Laurel
Laurel Stanley, 616 464-8747 Web Design Manager, Marketing
laurel.stanley@priority-health.com
Reading Odyssey first annual meeting
Folks,
We are just a day away from our first annual Reading Odyssey get together.
Whether you’ll be there in person or in spirit – what questions do you have for Bob Strassler, editor of our Thucydides edition?
And, if you aren’t going to be there, definitely send in some questions to: readingodyssey.com – so we can all see what you are interested in and try to ask Bob during our dinner in the private
Trustees’ dining room.
Phil
Why do we like to go to war?
Rob et al,
In last night’s call, I said that the decision to go to war with Sicily reminded me of the atmosphere in the U.S. when we decided to go to war with Iraq.
Rob chided me (politely, of course 😉 reminding me that the world of Athens is very different from our own. While I agree that it is too easy to make comparisons that don’t take into account the differences, I was actually making a slightly different point.
Rob rightly reminded us that the ancient Greek world had a militaristic culture where all the citizens of all the poli – not just of the Spartans – were trained to fight from an early age. Thus, for them going to war was what they did – it was expected.
Bruce also said that the *reason* Athens had to go to war against Sicily/Syracuse was flimsy. It would have been like the U.S. deciding to invade India- another democracy – because we could – rather than invading Iraq where there was a brutal dictator.
True – though the point I was making was more about the fact that there seems to be a common thread running through history. People like to go to war whatever the context or reasons given.
Generally speaking – and this is certainly true today – it’s more unpopular to oppose a war – any war despite its context – than to support one. Once the drumbeat starts it seems to be human nature to get excited for the adventure.
As Laurel put it on the call, the Athenians seemed to think it would be great fun to open a can of whoop *ss on the Sicilians/Syracuseans. [Ed: Laurel didn’t actually say the whoop *ss part.]
Why is it that peoples – whether living in democracies or tyrannies – consistently love the idea of going to war – whether “justified” or not?
Phil
great call, thank YOU
Folks,
Our new framework – where we have different members of the group tee up the conversation on three topics from our reading – seemed to work well tonight. Thanks again to Eric, Rob and Frank for leading our conversations on the treaties in Book Five, the Melian dialogue at the end of Book Five, and the debate/decision to go to Sicily in Book Six.
Let me know if you have further feedback on the call format – or anything I can do to improve the experience. For those of you who missed tonight’s call, I’ll get that up on the website soon.
Thanks!
Phil
P.S. We are designing a shirt for Robert Strassler that will say in Latin something like – “Thanks to Robert Strassler for creating the “Landmark Thucydides”, an edition that we consider a “possession for all time.” Andre is translating into Latin (his Latin is better than his ancient Greek 😉 and we’ll give it to Robert Strassler when we see him at the museum Friday, Aug 18.
P.S.S. For those of you who came to Thucydides late, we are paraphrasing Thucydides’ famous words from Book 1, page 16 (1.22.4) when he says “I have written my work, not as an essay which is to win applause of the moment, but as a possession for all time.”
Ben Bernanake as Odysseus?
Folks,
Thought you would enjoy this clip from the Wall Street Journal today, July 29.
Phil
Economy Following the Odyssey of Ben Bernanke By DAVID WESSEL July 29, 2006; Page A2 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115413539979621147-search.html? KEYWORDS=odyssey&COLLECTION=wsjie/6month In Homer, Odysseus had to sail between Scylla, a sharp-toothed man- eater, and Charybdis, who drank and belched waters creating treacherous whirlpools.
In monetary policy these days, the captain of the Federal Reserve, the bearded Ben Bernanke, faces his own challenge sailing between accelerating prices and a decelerating economy. Steer away from inflation by raising interest rates, and he risks swamping the economy. Steer away from painfully slow growth, and he risks unleashing the inflation demon.
Next week brings Mr. Bernanke important clues to plot his course. On Tuesday comes the monthly survey of factory purchasing managers, while Thursday brings the report from big retailers on July cash- register sales. Then, at 8:30 a.m. Friday, the government releases its count of how many Americans were employed — and how many weren’t — in July.
All will give Mr. Bernanke more of the numbers he says the “data dependent” Fed needs to decide whether to raise short-term interest rates another notch on Aug. 8 — or take the long-discussed pause in a campaign that has taken rates to 5.25% today from 1% in June 2004.
Friday’s government snapshot of the second-quarter economy highlights the twin threats. Growth slowed to a 2.5% annual pace, so sluggish that unemployment would rise if it persisted. But the Fed’s favorite price-inflation gauge turned up, as did the government’s broadest measure of wage and benefit costs.
Proliferating signs that the economy is slowing more than the Fed expects could lead Mr. Bernanke to steer away from another rate increase. That’s what financial markets were betting after Friday’s reports.
But the Labor Department jobs report due next Friday is particularly important. It will tell Mr. Bernanke how many new jobs were created in July (the June count was a disappointing 121,000), how many more or fewer workers were unemployed and looking for work (last number a low 4.6%), and how fast wages of production and other nonsupervisory workers are climbing (up only 3.9% over the past year, not enough to keep up with inflation.)
The report matters for several reasons. It’s big: It is based on surveys of 60,000 households and 160,000 government and private employers covering 400,000 different work sites. It’s fresh — that is, it isn’t based on previously reported surveys, which is why Wall Street finds it so hard to forecast accurately. And it can change how financial markets view the economy — and the Fed’s likely response — in an instant.
Lackluster hiring, rising unemployment and slow-growing wages would strengthen the case against raising rates in August. The opposite would strengthen the case. And if the picture is mixed, well, that is why Mr. Bush hired a brainy economist for the job.
Odysseus and his ship, by the way, avoided both Scylla and Charybdis. But he lost one man to each of Scylla’s six heads.
Reminder – call next week, July 31
Folks,
Just a quick reminder that we have a call next week:
Thucydides Books 5 & 6 Monday, July 31 8pm New York time/5pm San Francisco 800-615-2900 11215#
Hope you are all doing well!
Best,
Phil
Met Curator recommends…
Folks,
In prepration for our upcoming in-person meeting at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I have been designing a tour that takes us through the ancient near east and greek galleries. This tour is a “literary tour” that uses Homer, Herodotus and Thucydides quotes and references as a companion to the museum’s collection.
There is a wonderful piece in the greek galleries that is directly referenced in Herodotus. I won’t name the piece because I don’t want to spoil the surprise. However, I will pass along the reading recommendation from the curator of Greek and Roman Art at the museum who I have been in dialogue with about this special piece.
After giving some specific suggestions and academic references, Joan Mertens suggested a general book that I recommend you get.
If you have access to a good bookshop (MMA) or general library, then I recommend any book by John Boardman whose writing is particularly accessible.
With best wishes,
Joan R. Mertens
Curator Greek and Roman Art
On her advice, I bought Boardman’s Greek Art.
Phil
Great news – Robert Strassler is joining us in NY
Folks,
As I announced last week on our call, Robert Strassler, editor of The Landmark Thucydides, is coming down from Boston to spend the afternoon and evening with us at The Metropolitan Museum of Art in August.
If you have not RSVP’d for our first annual in-person meeting at The Met Museum – get in touch. It will be great to introduce many of you to each other – and it’s very kind of Bob to spend some time with us, especially as he is feverishly finishing his Landmark Herodotus due out 2007.
– Phil
Book 4 Reading Guide
Folks,
Andre has gone ahead and prepared a reading guide with questions for Book 4 of Thucydides.
Our next call is coming up this Monday:
Thucydides Book 4
Monday, July 10 8pm New York Time
1-800-615-2900 / *844979
Speak to you then!
Phil
P.S. Over the weekend I spent 7.5 hours at the Metropolitan Museum of Art – in the ancient Greek galleries – preparing for our in-person get together Friday, August 18th! It’s going to be cool 😉
Thucydides – Book 4
Three main efforts, a pivotally symbolic triptych
1. Pylos – The narration of this event is a marked change of Thucydides’ style compared to previously related campaigns. W. Robert Connor in his assessment Thucydides (Princeton UP, 1985) comments on the paradoxical nature of the Pylos campaign: “Paradox and surprise are emphasized and elaborated at every turn: ‘Luck had turned about to this extent – Athenians from land, indeed from Laconian [Spartan] land, were repelling Spartans who were attacking from the sea. And the Spartans from ships were attempting to make a landing against Athenians on their own land which came into enemy hands. This caused a great sensation at that time for they were very much a continental power and very strong in infantry while the Athenians were a sea power and preeminent in their navy’ (4.12.3). Paradox has an important role in the account, and a fully appropriate one. The Pylos operation marks a major turning point in the Histories. It is the first sign of the grand reversal in which the war culminates – the Athenians, at the outset Greece’s major naval power, ultimately lose their fleet; the Spartans, traditionally a land power, acquire an empire and develop the navy to control it. Pylos is our first glimpse of the larger pattern” (Connor, 111).
What do you think of Connor’s assessment? The description of the Pylos campaign takes up a good portion of the first half of Book 4. Why has Thucydides focused more on the telling of the battle and not as much on the negotiations and politics around the battle? Why do the “rational” Athenians reject an offer of peace from the Spartans? Why do the “belligerent” Spartans offer such rational peace terms?
2. Hermocrates’ speech at Gela – an attempt at unifying ‘Sicilians’ against the influence of the Athenians. Hermocrates’ logic is a recognition that aggressive “preventative measures” are the best form of defense in the RealPolitik world of the Greek Mediterranean. Connor argues that this speech may hearken back to Thucydides’ earlier statement on the cause of the Peloponnesian War in the first place. Thucydides’ original words are: “The truest reason, although the least evident in the discussion, was, in my opinion, that the Athenians by growing great caused fear in the Lacedaemonians and drove them into war” (1.23.6). This may be the repetition of a key theme for Thucydides about the ‘balance of power’ situation in the Mediterranean. It reminds me of the gathering storm before World War I, when only a spark was needed to set off Europe due to factors anticipated long before. Connor remarks that the placement of Hermocrates’ speech in the middle of Book 4 foreshadows the significance of the location later in the war: “Hermocrates’ speech marks a pivotal moment in Athenian affairs, just after the success at Pylos and just before the reverses inflicted by Brasidas. But it has a wider application as well, for by calling attention to Sicily, it invites the reader to anticipate the great invasion of that island and its awesome implications for Athens and for the understanding of power” (Connor, 126).
Once again, as with the Spartan delegation to Athens earlier in Book 4, Hermocrates’ speech is not balanced with an “antilogy” or counterpart speech as we saw Thucydides do earlier in Books 1-3. Why do you suppose Thucydides does this? Is he commenting on the lack of debate among people & governments? Is it a comment on the state of war at this time? Have the courtesies of war slowly been dispensed with after so many years of destruction?
3. Brasidas’ operations in Northern Greece – Sparta sends out a military commander with some diplomatic skills. The interesting characteristics of Brasidas are not only his ability to combine military effectiveness with politics in the Northern Greek regions, but his ability to promote the mantra of Sparta’s willingness to ‘liberate Greeks from Athenian imperialism.’ In addition, examples of Brasidas’ clemency shows a ‘kinder, gentler’ version of one’s typical image of a Spartan, which helps to promote Sparta’s image. Meanwhile, “liberated city-states” continue to install pro-Spartan oligarchies in various cities won over by Brasidas’ charisma. The contrast between Brasidas and Cleon from earlier in Book 4 is inevitable: Cleon the politician-turned-commander meets Brasidas the commander-turned-diplomat at Amphipolis. Both are killed as a result of the battle, but both have made their mark on the war. Neither of them was favorable towards a peace settlement, but with both out of the way, Book 5 opens with a temporary peace that, alas, will not last. The pawns in their game, the city-states of the North, find themselves desperate to ally with a winner who can end this war. Unfortunately, the war’s changing fortunes only lead to reprisals from Athens and more bloodshed.
What about the ideal of Greek city-state independence? Can it ever exist again? Did it really ever exist prior to this? Which side, Sparta or Athens, are the real “liberators” (if any)? What part did Thucydides himself play in the battle of Amphipolis? Why did he suffer banishment as a result? Could these personal reversals affect his telling of the History? Why does Thucydides focus so much on the personalities of Cleon and Brasidas? Does this method adequately signify larger political and social trends for each of the superpowers? Does this method forecast events for the rest of the war and the post-bellum period for Greece?
Great map of the history of near east, middle east
Folks,
Great map – shows Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek/Macedonian, Roman….empires all the way up to today in the near/middle east.
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
We will start reading two plays and do a call in early November.
I’ll get those play selections out to you soon.
Then, in November we’ll tackle another larger book.
I’m also starting a group to just read Herodotus – if any of you missed Herodotus and want to join us or you know someone who’d like to join us, let me know. We’ll be starting another read of Herodotus in early November!
Phil
Phil Terry CEO, Creative Good www.creativegood.com www.goodexperience.com
29. September 2006 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Herodotus | Comments Off on Great map of the history of near east, middle east