American Revolution – anything like Thucydides?
Pat and I were recently discussing Thucydides and his famous comments on the terrors of revolutions.
I asked whether the loyalists suffered during the American Revolution in the ways that Thucydides described happened to many during the civil wars that raged among the Greeks.
We took a quick look online and could not find evidence for terrors wreaked upon loyalists. Rather, we found sources that claimed that loyalists were treated rather well – as long as they didn’t say or do too much.
However, this past weekend, the Wall Street Journal ran an article – Did Fear or Principle Motivate Opponents Of U.S. Revolution? – that described some of the troubles loyalists ran into.
“Violence against loyalists wasn’t uncommon. Some were tarred and feathered. Hundreds were jailed.”
Various counts differ – loyalits made up anywhere from 20% to 33% of the American population at the time of the Revolution. Many fled, most lost property.
The loyalists seemed to share Thucydides politics – they prefered a relatively benign but powerful ruler to the “madness of the multitude.”
“Almost all of the loyalists were, in one way or another, more afraid of America than they were of Britain,” said William H. Nelson in the 1961 “The American Tory.” Or as the Reverend Mather Byles put it in the 18th century, “They call me a brainless Tory, but tell me… which is better — to be ruled by one tyrant 3,000 miles away or by 3,000 tyrants one mile away?”
I’m betting that William H. Nelson and Reverend Mather Byles read and agreed with Thucydides.
Phil
Thucydidean analysis of America today?
Folks,
I had lunch yesterday with Julia Sweig, the Nelson and David Rockefeller Senior Fellow at the Center for Foreign Policy.
She’s just written a new book – “Unfriendly Fire: Losing Friends and Making Enemies in the Anti-American Century.”
I met with her in a small group of about 6 other people and we spent two hours discussing her book. She wrote the book to answer the question: “How is it that anti-Americanism has so quickly risen? Is it possible that one President could spark such a broad backlash?”
Her answer is “no – one President and his policies are not the root cause.” In her book, she looks beyond the proximate causes of anti- Americanism (the war in Iraq and our unilateral method for going in) and looks historically at the last 50 years – especially, and interestingly, at deep-rooted causes.
Sweig writes that anti-American sentiments were born in Latin America at a time when most of the international community was distracted by the Cold War. Under a policy to contain communism, Sweig argues, the United States sponsored dictatorships and tolerated the subversion of democracy throughout Central and South America.
I could not agree more with this statement above. The actions of the U.S. in the last 50 years have helped to create a context where now when we are the world’s sole superpower, we are not always given the benefit of the doubt. There’s a structural distrust or even hostility.
Of course, this method of looking beyond proximate causes can be traced back to Thucydides who, as you may recall in book 1, debunks the reasons Athens and Sparta gave for the war (the Platean battle, etc) and suggested a more longer-term deeper reason – i.e. Sparta’s concern for Athens growing power.
Because we have debated the question of America and compared America today to Athens during the Peloponessian War, I think you may like to read Julie Sweig’s new book.
I told her that in 2001 when a few raised the question of “how could this happen” after 9/11 – and it was meant in the sense of what created the conditions to make this possible – they were rudely shouted down. It was seen as an “anti-american” question. Because her book essentially asks that question – I asked her if she’s received similar backlash. She said no – it’s been well received “inside the beltway” and among a broad cross-section of policy analysts, press, etc. She hypothesizes that the Katrina disaster has created an openness to dialogue about our government and it’s policies inside and outside the U.S.
She does outline solutions or possible next steps – mostly at the margin – and believes that addressing the structural problems are the work of a generation.
She’ll be interviewed on Charlie Rose soon – if I get the date, I’ll let you know.
Thanks,
Phil
Thucydides Book 3 call
Folks,
We had a great call last week discussing Book 3 and reviewing Andre’s reading questions.
Book 3 is intense – with the Plataean siege, Mytilenean revolt (and debate between Cleon and Diodotus) and the Corcyrean revolution (and Thucydides’ commentary on revolutions).
It was a great call – if you missed it, take a listen.
Thanks,
Phil
Reminder – call this Monday!
Folks,
Just a quick reminder – we have a call this coming Monday to discuss Chapter 3.
Mon, June 19th
8pm new york time
1-800-615-2900 11215#
Make sure you’ve read these key parts of Book 3:
– Mytilenean revolt and debate between Cleon and Diodotus about whether all the adult men should be executed
– Corcyrean revolution and Thucydides’ longest piece of commentary (his commentary on revolutions)
Also, take a look at Andre’s study questions below.
Thanks!
Phil
—————————- Thucydides Book 3 – Reading Odyssey
Study Questions prepared by Andre Stipanovic
Summary of events so far:
Book 1 – events leading up to the war
Book 2 – first three years progress of the war; 3rd year, instead of the usual invasion and devastation of Attica, Plataea is besieged and forced to question its association with Athens. At the beginning of Book 2, the Plataean occupation by Thebes starts the Peloponnesian war.
Book 3 – key events revolve around the Plataean seige, the Mytilenean revolt (and the debate about Athens’ response), and the Corcyrean revolution, including Thucydides’ famous commentary on revolutions.
———- Study Questions for Book 3
1. The ensuing Plataean siege still leaves some important questions: – Why are the Spartans so intent on subjugating Plataea? – Is the goal a military one? political? psychological? – Why does Thucydides spend effort on describing the events of this particular siege (specifically 3.20-24, 3.52)?
2. The Plataeans (3.53-59) and the Thebans (3.60-67) debate their own merits in the Greek world at this time. – Which argument is more persuasive to you? – Is either argument much more forceful than the other? – What reasons do the Plataeans have for standing with Athens? – How are these reasons either stated or implied?
3. Meanwhile, the Athenians must deal with a new threat: the revolt of Lesbos, specifically the city of Mytilene. – What were Mytilene’s relations with Athens and Sparta like before the war? – Why did they feel the need to revolt at this particular time? – Was this the best time to revolt? – The speeches showcase Cleon’s defense of harsh measures against the rebels (3.37-40) and Diodotus’ appeal for RealPolitik (3.41-48). Note the extreme viewpoints of both speeches. – What point does Cleon make about Athenian Imperialism? – What point does Diodotus make about Athenian democracy? – How do these questions relate to U.S. foreign & domestic policy today?
4. How does the Corcyrean revolution (3.69-85) complement what Thucydides initially brought up concerning the Mytilenean revolt? Is Thucydides maintaining “historical objectivity” or is he allowing too much subjective comment here?
5. Is the weather phenomena described in 3.89 a “tsunami”?!
6. As for military operations in Northern Greece, what is Thucydides trying to say by focusing on Demosthenes’ defeat and victory? How do the Athenian allies participate? Is Sparta’s military strategy here effective? Why or why not?
7. Mentions of Sicilian operations are scattered throughout the book and will become more important in Book 4 as a reason the Athenians land at Pylos. The ill-fated Athenian Expedition to Sicily will eventually affect the outcome of the whole Peloponnesian war.
Neocons and Thucydides
As we had discussed in our call last week, the Neocons see Thucydides as a cornerstone for their thoughts on foreign policy.
Neoconservatives, or “neocons,” believe in the use of U.S. military might to foster the spread of democracy around the globe. The notion of employing superior military power to forge sympathetic regimes is hardly new; according to Irving Kristol’s account of neoconservatism in the Weekly Standard, the favorite neocon text is Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War, in which the Greek historian explains “the strong will do what they will, the weak will do what they must.” The notion of spreading democracy is also rooted in history…
Click here to read the full article, “U.S. Political Parties and Foreign Policy” published by the Council on Foreign Relations.
Graffiti from the Roman Empire
Discover Magazine recently published an article, “Vox Populi“, which details a 150 year old project in Germany to catalog Roman graffiti.
More than 180,000 of these inscriptions are now cataloged in the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, a mammoth scientific database maintained by the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences and Humanities. The Corpus throws open a large window on Roman society and reveals the ragged edges of ordinary life—from the grief of parents over the loss of a child to the prices prostitutes charged clients.
Such notions that romantic love did not exist until recent times are supposedly debunked by the grafiti, according to Discover.
Unfortunately, the database is not available online. According to its Wikipedia entry, it can be purchased for only £28,000.
Remaining Thucydides call schedule
here’s the remaining call schedule –
– mon, june 19th
8pm new york tine
book 3
– mon, july 10th
8pm new york time
book 4
– mon, july 31
8pm new york time
book 5 & 6
– fri, aug 18
live conversation at the met in NY
book 7 & 8
we’ll send out reminder calls before each date but please go ahead and book these dates on your calendars!
thanks!
phil
Recording from second half of Book 2
After a “spring break” due to the business and academic calendar, we have picked up our Thucydides again and ran a call last night on the second half of Book 2.
Download the mp3 file here to listen to the call: Download T-06-06-Book2.mp3
Here’s highlights from the discussion:
— 0 – 10 minutes
skip the first 10 minutes or so (as we wait for everyone to join us we discuss how to pronounce Thucydides name in Greek, the 150 year old database of Roman graffiti, etc.)
— 10 minutes – 12 minutes
– review of what we discussed for the
first half of book 2 (up to about page 131)
— 12 minutes – 25 minutes
– Why were all these small battles going on?
– Seemed to have shifting fronts as opposed to an
organized front?
– The siege of Plataea
– The role of women in Thucydides
— 24 minutes – 28:30 minutes
– History of warfare and the causes of war
– Discussion of new genetic analysis and
a recent scientific book that argues that
humans have become decreasingly warlike
— 28:30 – 36:00
– Naval battle between Athens and Sparta
(photos of triremes on p. 140)
– Speeches of the two opposing naval commanders
— 36:00 –
– Misc. questions – why Athens exiled or fined generals
that lost/fell out of favor?
– Why did the Spartans “butcher” neutrals they captured at sea?
(p. 129)
– Final discussion about the American Civil War, Vietname,
Iraq and the Neocons use of Thucydides.
Thanks,
Phil
Notes from first half of Book 2
We had a good call last Saturday with:
– Jean Bolgatz
– Kelly Magill (our newest member)
– Rob Schmults
– Andre Stipanovic
– Pat Wictor
Unfortunately, the conference call service erred and never made the recording (frustrating – we even hung up and called back in again but to no avail).
I’d like my colleagues to add to my brief notes below.
We focused the call on Pericles’ Funeral Oration (a historically famous speech given after the first year of the war) and Pericles’ second speech of Book 2 where he demands Athenians, who are losing faith because of the plague and the Spartan invations into Attica, to remain true to the cause and original strategy of the war.
The highlight of the call for me was when we decided to compare
– Pericles’ Funeral Oration (starts page 111 of the Landmark Thucydides)
with
– Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address
We did it live but we discovered that the Gettysburg Address, while much shorter, clearly had Pericles’ “fingerprints” all over it. Lincoln must have read Thucydides and it cannot be doubted that it had an impact on him.
I encourage everyone in the reading group to try this comparison and see what you think.
Phil
Our own times?
I recently found a quote by American revolutionary John Adams that may ring true for all of us today who are reading Thucydides.
Indeed, we seem to be reading the history of our own times.
Phil
05. July 2006 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Thucydides | Tags: Thucydides | Comments Off on Our own times?