Thucydides January 2009 Book 2 – audio recording
Here’s theaudio recording for the Thucydides book 2 call. Listen online ordownload the mp3 file and listen to it as a podcast on your ipod.
Download Thucydides-January2009-Book2Some random thoughts.
It is sometimes interesting to go outside after these calls and look to the sky (“The same sky they saw.” as Andre pointed out to us a while back) and try to imagine what Pericles actually did think about before he gave that 2nd speech in Book II. Perhaps he was as Paul said, a predecessor of Freud. None the less, I am constantly amazed to be reminded that the limitations the Greeks faced were physical or technological, not mental.
When they went to war they had to consider doing so in places where they could get food. They could never carry enough for the expeditions, and in fact did not know how long each may take. They at times camped out and tried to wait out the inhabitants (think years) if they could not conquer through siege. Their planning always must have considered the physical limitations, such as making sure they would be able to get enough food for lots of soldiers where they were going. This was probably part of what Thucydides means by “ravage”.
But mentally, they were very advanced, and Thucydides is presenting us with the cream of the crop. These are men that understood not just how to wage war, but also how to manage large quantities of people, to rule nations, and especially how to influence other men’s minds. But the men’s minds that they are trying to influence are unique, as well. They relied on a more primitive science to understand the world around them, and had various versions of deity to worship, but they did have a very strong sense of ethics that they felt connected them to their gods. I do not know how they regarded death or an afterlife, but they held much respect for their ancestors and felt obliged to live up to their ancestors commitments, as well as their own. They also seemed to place a lot of value in honor rightfully earned.
On page 111 – “For men can endure to hear others praised only so long as they can severally persuade themselves of their own ability to equal the actions recounted…”
The people of Sparta and Athens were probably far more alike than the differences we are trying to see. I wonder what someone will think 2000 years from know if they read about World War II and try to find the differences between Germany and America. Will they look at the countries or specific people? The psychology of Hitler’s speeches? And who for America? The atrocities? Both sides committed horrors? Allies? National pride? Honor?
Would the world be different today had Athens won? How so?
Sorry, my mind is kind of wandering here but I left the call with many thoughts swirling and each led to another.
Dan
Felice Bochman (A2009)
Formally the Senior Editorial Director for Care.com, and Managing Editor for Babyzone.com, Felice continues her work in e-commerce and web content. She has a BA in English and Philosophy and an MA in English Literature. Her web content and freelance work have appeared on Babyzone.com, Care.com, The Content Wrangler, Poshtots.com, and Interfaithfamily.com.
Felice is also an erstwhile fresco painter. Though currently on hiatus from the art world, her artwork has been featured in a number of shows and has sold to clients across the country. Free time comes at a premium—but when she does have some—she indulges in hiking, yoga, playing with her kids, reading an eclectic selection of books and journals, and reminding herself to enjoy the present and not spend too much time worrying about the future. She lives in Boston with her kids, utterly detests being bored, isn’t very good at relaxing, and yet loves the rare moments when life can be enjoyed at less than the speed of the internet.
Sari Harris (A2009)
I am the Senior Information Architect on the product team of Thumbplay, Inc., where I get to focus on people’s obsessions with their handheld devices and mobile media. Previously, I spent six years at the Economist Group as an information architect and interface designer. I hold an MLIS from Pratt Institute and a BA in English Literature and Creative Writing from UIC. In my free time I study the intersection of people, media, and technology–when I’m not reading philosophy, literature and comic books, or programing interactive toys.
Please reply: Reminder and *new number* for tonight’s call – Thucydides Book 2
Hi everyone,
I wanted to remind of you of tonight’s call, January 5, and to give you the new call in information for the Thucydides reading group. Please update your calendars as this will be the call in information now.
Monday, January 5
8pm Eastern / 5pm Pacific
1-888-350-0075
passcode 9281912#
Please reply with an [x] below: will you join this call?
[ ] Yes, I’ll be there
[ ] Maybe, I’m not sure
[ ] No, I can’t make it
Please let me know if you have any questions. Happy new year!
Deena Dominguez
Aristotle reading group trivia
All,
My dad noticed my Aristotle book the other day, and pointed out a bit of trivia that I was not aware of. Richard McKeon, editor of the volume, is apparently the U of Chicago professor who was the inspiration for the ‘Chairman’ character in Robert Pirsig’s novel ‘Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance’ (no doubt a contender for the reading odyssey in its own right).
I pulled up an article the UChicago Magazine (http://magazine.uchicago.edu/9412/Feat4.html) that paints a pretty interesting picture of him (certainly prettier than the one painted by Pirsig). You might want to give it a glance.
JH
Thucydides Book 2 Outline
Dear fellow readers,
I want to wish you a warm holiday season in this extremely cold weather (yes, it is even cold here in Texas!). I am looking forward to our next call on Monday Jan 5th. Till then enjoy the reading. I have included an outline of events below for help in keeping the larger perspective on Book 2.
Best,
Andre
Outline for Book II, the first three years:
First Year – Main Events
Plataea – Thebes instigates insurrection, invasion of Plataea, an Athenian ally.
official start of war (2.7) with pro-Spartan allies (Thebans) looking like the aggressors although feeling against Athenian imperialism runs high as well (2.8)
Attica – invasion of Attica by Peloponnesian ground forces, Athenians move inside city walls.
Archidamus, Spartan king and military commander, estimates wrongly that the ravaging of the Athenian countryside will eventually force the Athenians to engage the Spartans et al. in ground combat.
Athens responds to the Attic ground invasion with naval raids against the Peloponnesian coast. Athens concludes alliances with Sitalces, king of Thrace, and Perdiccas, king of Macedonia. The conflict later in this book between these two kings is not significantly supported by Athens on either side.
Second Year – Main Events
besides a second invasion of Attica by Peloponnesian ground forces, Athens is hit by a terrible plague.
Thrace – Spartan envoys on their way to the Persian king are captured & executed at Athens
Amphilocian Argos – Ambraciots (pro-Spartan) attack Amphilocian Argos but fail to take the city
Naupactus – Phormio’s (Athenian) ships at harbor
Caria, Lycia – Athens’ naval squadron, ordered to collect tribute and put down privateers in Caria and Lycia suffers a defeat
Potidaea – Potidaea surrenders on terms. Athens criticizes its own generals for granting terms, then sends settlers to colonize the site
Third Year – Main Events
invasion of Attica proper is neglected in exchange for siege of Plataea, question of “neutrality”
Chalcidice – Athenians win an initial success at Spartolus but then suffer heavy losses when defeated by peltasts and cavalry.
Acarnania – at Ambraciot invitation, a Peloponnesian expedition sails to the Ambracian Gulf and launches an attack on Acarnania. Acarnanian victory at Stratus forces the Peloponnesian forces to withdraw through Oeniadae.
Crisaean Gulf – Phormio and Athenian fleet win against larger (mostly troop transport) Peloponnesian fleet; the second naval engagement following has mixed results, but Peloponnesians are able to pin Phormio against the coast before being cowed. Result is that Peloponnesians are learning by their mistakes
Salamis – Peloponnesians attempt a surprise attack on Piraeus, but only get as far as Salamis, Athenians are able to learn from this and strengthen their security of Piraeus.
Thrace – Sitalces king of Thrace invades Macedonia and environs in league with Athens. Athens, however, does not respond with much promised aid to Sitalces, thus a chance is lost to capitalize in this theater with Sitalces simply withdrawing back to Thrace? Athens has made alliance treaties with both kingdoms and very diplomatically avoids angering either side significantly, perhaps playing them off each other?
Acarnania – Phormio advances by land into Acarnania, briefly staying then withdrawing
Speeches:
first year
2.11 Archidamus, Sparta’s king, speaks to the army, calling for caution, vigilance, and discipline
2.35 – 2.46 Pericles’ Funeral Oration
second year
2.60- 2.64 Pericles’ Apology (Defense) of war strategy and fidelity to Athens
third year
2.87 Cnemus, Brasidas & Peloponnesian commanders call on their men to be brave despite their inexperience (in naval engagements)
2.89 Phormio encourages the Athenians even though they remain outnumbered
Clip: the first “computer” reassembled?
Folks,
Pat Wictor, the cofounder of the reading groups, sent me a link to an article about the successful reassembly of the world’s first “computer.”
Full story here:
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/12/2000-year-old-a.html?npu=1&mbid=yhp
Text below my signature.
Thanks!
Phil
World’s First Computer Rebuilt, Rebooted After 2,000 Years
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/12/2000-year-old-a.html?npu=1&mbid=yhp
A British museum curator has built a working replica of a 2,000-year-old Greek machine that has been called the world’s first computer.
A dictionary-size assemblage of 37 interlocking dials crafted with the precision and complexity of a 19th-century Swiss clock, the Antikythera mechanism was used for modeling and predicting the movements of the heavenly bodies as well as the dates and locations of upcoming Olympic games.
The original 81 shards of the Antikythera were recovered from under the sea (near the Greek island of Antikythera) in 1902, rusted and clumped together in a nearly indecipherable mass. Scientists dated it to 150 B.C. Such craftsmanship wouldn’t be seen for another 1,000 years — but its purpose was a mystery for decades.
Many scientists have worked since the 1950s to piece together the story, with the help of some verysophisticated imaging technology in recent years, including X-ray and gamma-ray imaging and 3-D computer modeling.
Now, though, it has been rebuilt. As is almost always the way with these things, it was an amateur who cracked it. Michael Wright, a former curator at the Science Museum in London, has built a replica of the Antikythera, which works perfectly.
In the video from New Scientist below, Wright shows how the machine works.
In short, Antikythera’s user interface is deceptively simple, operated by a simple knob on the side. This conceals the intricacy within, amounting to a complex mathematical model, tracking the movements of planetary bodies and incorporating a series of submechanisms to account for the eccentricities of their rotation.
A dial on the faceplace featured the Greek zodiac and an Egyptian calendar; pointers showed the location of the moon and the five planets known at the time. On the machine’s back, an upper dial shows a 19-year calendar (matching the solunar cycle) and the timing of upcoming Olympic games. A lower dial shows a 76-year cycle (when the Olympic and solunar cycles coincide) and indicates the months in which lunar and solar eclipses can be expected.
According to New Scientist, this is the first working model of the Antikythera computer to include all of the device’s known features. And, like the original machine, it has been built of recycled metal plates. That’s right: The Antikythera mechanism is not only the world’s oldest computer, it’s also the world’s first greencomputer.
Aristotle assignments for Jan and Feb; Happy Holidays!
Folks,
Happy holidays to you. I look forward to reading Aristotle with you in 2009.
Keep in mind that many of my professor friends were reluctant to help me develop this curriculum because they believed we should be reading secondary sources for an overview of Aritstotle rather than trying to tackle the primary text.
Pat and I feel strongly that we *should* tackle the primary text. But Aristotle is not easy. Our guide, Prof Paul Cartledge at Cambridge – who agreed we should tackle the primary text – thought, however, that we should start with Aristotle’s biological writings.
I had originally planned to start with Aristotle’s logic classic, “Organon.” Here’s what Paul said in response:
The biological writings that we will tackle for the January 13 call are:
– De partibus Animalum (643 – 664)
– De Genratione Animalium (665 – 688)
For February, we’ll likely read “De Anima” – or “On the Soul”
*If* you want more for January or Feb, then you can also tackle:
– Parva Naturalia (pages 607 – 632)
– Historia Animalium (pages 633 – 642)
Thanks!
Phil
P.S. You’ll get one more note from me – I’m asking everyone to help cover the costs of running the reading groups. More on that soon.
————————–
Tues, Jan 13 – Aristotle was at heart a biologist so based on Paul Cartledge’s recommendation we are starting with his biological writings.
Tues, Feb 10 – continuing biological writings
Tues, Mar 17 – Categoriae, De Interpretatione, Analytica Priora, Analytics Posteriora
Tues, Apr 7 – continuing Categoriae, De Interpretatione, Analytica Priora, Analytics Posteriora
Tues, May 12 – Physics and Metaphysics, Book 1 only
Tues, Jun 9 – Nicomachean Ethics (in its entirety)
Tues, Jul 7 – continuing Nicomachean Ethics (in its entirety)
Tues, Sep 8 – continuing Nicomachean Ethics (in its entirety)
Tues, Oct 6 – Politics (Books 1-3; 8-9), Rhetoric (Book 1) and Poetics
Tues, Nov 10 – continuing Politics (Books 1-3; 8-9), Rhetoric (Book 1) and Poetics
Pericles Speech
I had a really great time on the call today folks. I’m really enjoying everyone’s perspectives and insights.
I mentioned that I broke Pericles’ speech into its basic elements and I know somebody else mentioned they did the same thing so I thought I’d share this with you. I think this can be refined further and hopefully simplified to fewer elements. I think this could be helpful to anyone who may find themselves in a situation where they are in a difficult leadership challenge and need to get people in a difficult situation aligned toward an important goal.
The elements I came up with are as follows.
1) Call out the issues (things you know people are saying or gossiping about)
2) Appeal to a higher purpose or value system of the people
3) Pull them into owning the current situation (ownership of the original decision in Pericles situation)
4) Remind them what is behind the current situation/decision so they understand it was a good or logical approach with the info available at the time even though it didn’t work out
5) Tell them what to do (A call to action)
6) Appeal to a greater legacy for them all
7) Explain they must earn it
8) Explain the consequences of reversing their decision/situation instead of moving forward
9) Tell them what logic to use to base their current decision on
10) Repeat telling them what to do (A call to action) I just added this myself and I’m not sure that this is how Pericles ended his speech.
Maybe this is a good approach to use when trying to get people to vote for something, but I think it can be a nice framework for any speech where you need to convince people of something. Feel free to improve and refine this if anyone wants.
Jim
06. January 2009 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Thucydides | Tags: Thucydides | Comments Off on Pericles Speech