Some notes on Book I of Herodotus
Hi folks,
I’ve taken a few notes about Book I, and published them to a Google Doc which (if I did it correctly) should be accessible here My Book I notes are mostly about oracles, dreams, and omens. (I got to wondering what percent of the time an oracle, dream, or omen was vindicated as having been correct.) As we go along I’ll try to keep updating this same web page with notes.
Talk to you Monday.
Mark
my two cents
Hi all,
I’m not far into Book 1… I’ve been thinking about the use of technology then and now. The purpose of using language and writing to record the history was to store the knowledge for others – you have to marvel at its longevity and the fact that we can enjoy it today. I was wondering what others thought – does it contrast or agree with our use of technology? What kind of information will be fascinating to future generations?
– Sari
Carl Kawaja (H2008)
Carl Kawaja is a portfolio manager at Capital World Investors, a mutual fund company based in Los Angeles. He graduated from Brown University in 1986 with a degree in History and from Columbia Business School in 1991. He is married to Wendy Holcombe and has three kids, Catherine (6 – the blonde in the photo below), Marcus (5 – whose school friend is the brunette in the photo below) and Noelle (2 and still learning to swim).
Congratulations to your moderator (he’s just received a small grant)
Andre Stipanovic, PhD, has just received a history grant to finish a writing project focused on the 1st century Roman historian Tacitus focused on his work Agricola.
He’s addressing interesting questions – both about the form of Agricola and about the content.
I particularly like this question that Andre plans to explore:
“What happens to an ideal public servant in the service of a tyrannical emperor?”
He is hopeful to publish a journal article and perhaps do more than that.
And he credits our reading groups as providing another context for him to sharpen his skills as a historian (most of his work up to now has been on literature and poetry with history in the background).
Join me in congratulating Andre!
Thanks,
Phil
More detail from his proposal:
I want to argue that Tacitus’ Agricola is a history at the micro level, while his more famous works, the Histories and Annals, are written at the macro level. Both approaches involve a conscious commentary on the state of the Roman principate in the 1st century. While the macro level perspective of the Histories and Annals includes many personages relevant to the functioning of the Roman State at its highest levels, the Roman State and its Emperors are the main focus. The difference in the Agricola narrative, which has traditionally been labeled a biography, is that it too addresses questions about the principate, but from a micro level perspective centered on one specific agent. My reading of Tacitus’ work posits the question: “What happens to an ideal public servant in the service of a tyrannical emperor?” Questions that follow logically from a reading of the Tacitean corpus would include: “How can one person best serve the state in such circumstances, when personal integrity comes into contact with the powers-that-be? How well can one serve one’s state when one’s loyalty must also be directed toward a tyrannical superior?”
Herodotus Book I Update The writing of History
Thoughts from How to Read a Book by Adler & Van Doren
These are some of my favorite quotes about writing/reading history. Please look them over and let’s think about how they might or might not apply to Herodotus as we read through Book I.
Notes & Quotes
Herodotus (c. 484-425 B.C.E)
Excerpts from How to Read a Book:
Ch. 16 pp. 234-244
p. 235 – History as narration: “We think…that the essence of history is narration, that the last five letters of the word – ‘story’ – help us to understand the basic meaning.”
p. 238 – Historian’s basic approach to the narrative: “Nevertheless, it is important to remember that the historian must always make up something. He must either find a general pattern in, or impose one on, events…he is likely to be forced to to assign causes for events and motivations for actions. It is essential to recognize which way the historian you are reading is operating.”
p. 240 – Thucydides example: an historian may not be accurate about the events he/she narrates but his/her influence afterward on history can be tremendous: “Leaders in later eras read Thucydides [and Herodotus]…thus we read Thucydides [and Herodotus] not because he described perfectly what happened before he wrote his book, but because he to a certain extent determined what happened after. And we read him, strange as this may seem, to know what is happening now.” (my underline)
p. 241 – The facts themselves of the History are not necessarily the end goal in reading a great work: “If your view of history is limited, if you go to it to discover only what really happened, you will not learn the main thing that [Herodotus], or indeed any good historian, has to teach. If you read [Herodotus] well, you may even decide to give up trying to discover what really happened in the past.”
p. 242 – What limitations does the author set for him/herself? how has the historian chosen to tell his/her story?
Some Observations
First, let me say that I have enjoyed so much the comments of my fellow readers. Your comments are so illuminating, and your close reading of the text is an inspiration to me. At the risk of cluttering your in boxes with drivel, I will share the following observations:
I have taken a lot of detours (i.e. gone down my own rabbit holes) on this “journey” including looking at modern day maps for the names of cities and rivers. For example, the Halys River is now called the Kizilirmak, and it is now used for hydro-electric power. Phocaea is Foca. Halicarnassus is now called Bodrum. Many other random geographical facts have fascinated me.
I also am fascinated by transportation and communication methods. In fact, there is an article in Science Times today, which I will forward about ancient mechanics, and the Trireme boat is featured. According to Appendix S, about navigation, mariners – in particular the Persians, did not use the stars, because the Aegean area is too narrow. Instead, (see p 832 for more details) they relied on careful study and documentation of the shoreline to find their way.
The number of clans or groups of peoples is enormous. My running list is up to about twenty such named groups. It is an insight into one of the reasons why modern political boundaries are so challenging, they are drawn completely independent of culture and history. The “boundaries” in Herodotus’s time included geography, climate, customs, trade just to name a few. In 1.155, Herodotus tells of Croesus’ advice to Cyrus about the Lydians. Paraphrasing, he says take their weapons away, make them weat tunics, teach them the lyre and the harp, and educate the sons to be shopkeepers.
Cathryn C. Cranston
Adam Davids (H2008 and A2009)
Adam Davids is the principal of the entertainment law practice, the Law Office of Adam Davids, P.C. In his practice, Adam represents artists and indies in their pursuit of their projects and the protection of their rights.
Prior to establishing his own practice, Adam was the CEO of a multinational industry association in the financial industry and ran the international department of a financial training institution. Adam has also been a partner in an annual music conference in Miami, a waiter in Prague, both a car jockey and a disc jockey in Canada and a business manager in London. He received his Masters in history from Columbia, his JD from Cardozo School of Law and currently resides in the better borough of Brooklyn.
favorites stories? observations? questions?
Folks,Love the online dialogue that’s beginning to happen. I was out to dinner last night with a few of our reading group members and we had a good chat about favorite stories and observations.
So – what are your favorite stories so far?
What’s the experience like of reading this book written 2,500 years ago? What’s familiar? What’s unfamiliar?
Any other observations?
Any questions?
Phil
Quick thoughts
Quick thought #1 about Hellenic unity: The Greeks usually dropped their political differences to compete in athletic contests of which the Olympics was only one event. Apparently their zeal for sports and religious festivals sometimes outweighed their desire to annihilate one another.
Quick thought #2 about time, space and ‘sense of world’ for the Greeks:
Their boundaries for the geographic world were much smaller than ours. They thought of the world as extending from the Straits of Gibraltar to India (West to East) and from Africa to perhaps northern Europe (South to North). Therefore, journeys like Homer’s Odyssey were conceivably considered trips ‘around the world’. Hindrances to travel both on land and sea drew out the voyages and exaggerated the mental distances that we take for granted today.
Andre
😉
How is Apology and Phaedo going?
How’s your Plato reading going?
How do you like Socrates’ defense in Apology? Are you inspired, surprised?
For those of you who have read Herodotus and Thucydides – you know much more about the political and historical context than you might otherwise. What do you make of Socrates’ trial in 399? Some way the real motivation was Socrates’ support of the oligarchy. What do you think?
How about Phaedo?
As the editor notes in his introduction, Phaedo contradicts some of what Socrates says in Apology – and many commentators see Phaedo as Plato’s early thinking on the “forms” that show up in The Republic (which we’ll be reading in the fall).
Fun question: Do you like the argument for why souls must go to the underworld?
Finally, the perennial question, why are we reading Plato? What are your initial thoughts on the relevance or value of reading this ancient Greek philosopher?
Phil
03. April 2008 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Plato | Tags: Plato | Comments Off on How is Apology and Phaedo going?