Book 7 Study Guide Questions
Hi everyone,I hope your summer reading is going well! Here are some questions to ponder as we work through Book 7 containing the events leading up to and including Thermopylae (literally “hot gates”). The introduction of the Persian king Xerxes is very interesting and he seems to embody the character of a Persian king for me. The cooperation of the Greeks is also admirable to an extent. At any rate, I hope you can join us for a discussion of Book 7 on Monday August 11. This date has been modified since the start of this reading group, so please check your planners. Our final discussion is still scheduled for Mon Sept 8 and will include Books 8 & 9. Hope to see some of you in New York City next week!Regards,AndreQuestion #1The decision for the Persians to invade Greece is a highly significant one. Starting in Book 7, chapter 8, what are Xerxes’ reasons for doing so? Are they based on national security? personal revenge? tradition? anything else?After Xerxes’ dreams convince the Persians to invade, does that make Mardonios’ reasons any stronger? Why or why not?Question #2 In chapters 27-29, Pythios voluntarily offers Xerxes a great amount of resources to help the war effort. Xerxes appreciates the offer, but becomes angry at Pythios soon after (38-39). Is Xerxes justified in doing so? Does this story, which surrounds Xerxes’ order to ‘punish’ the Hellespont, show Xerxes’ madness? wisdom?Question #3The Ancient Greeks believed that “hubris” or ‘overweening pride’ would lead to a just punishment from the gods. In which instances in Book 7, does Herodotus show Xerxes’ “hubris?” In which instances is Xerxes prudent? How does Xerxes compare with his predecessor Darius in balancing “hubris” with prudence?Question #4Before the crossing of the Hellespont, Xerxes and Artabanos have a dialogue that begins with the ‘shortness of human life’ (chs. 46-52). Both Xerxes and Artabanos have differing views on this and on the coming invasion of Greece. How does Xerxes justify his position vis-a-vis Artabanos? Given the situation and regardless of the outcome, do either Xerxes or Artabanos have the stronger argument?Question #5Given Xerxes’ decision to allow the three captured Greek spies to see his whole Persian force (ch. 147), what is Xerxes’ strategy as he approaches Thermopylae? Even with the exiled Spartan king Demaratos’ advice, what does Xerxes nevertheless cling to as his military advantange? What advantage to the Greeks is Xerxes constantly overlooking? Why?Question #6The Delphic oracle predicted for the Spartans that “either their city must be laid waste by the foreigner or a Spartan king be killed” (ch. 220). Was this the main reason Leonidas decided to remain at placeThermopylae? What other reasons are there? Was the battle of Thermopylae militarily significant or merely symbolic?Question #7What are your favorite stories from Book 7? Which, if any, have you heard about before in movies, books or popular media?
Photo of Hedy at the Sawdust Festival
Folks,
I had an opportunity to spend time this week with our esteemed colleague, Hedy Williamson.
Below is a photo of me, Hedy and Lisa standing in front of some art done by a friend of hers (if you can believe it, I forgot to get a photo of Hedy with *her* art!).
It was great to see her and buy some of her art which I will proudly displaying in my home soon.
Hope Plato is going well.
Phil
August’s reading assignment
Hi everyone,
Thanks for participating in the class! The next reading assignment is:
– Reading assignment for August phone call
Read in your Hastie & Dawes textbook – All of six sections of the appendix (A.1 – A.6)
Please e-mail me with any questions for Dr. Eric Gold and we’ll get him online answering questions between class sessions.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thank you!
Deena
July 2008 Plato – Phaedrus & Protagoras – audio recording
Here’s the audio recording for the July Plato call. Listenonline or download the mp3 file and listen to it as a podcast on youripod.
The Geopolitics of Iran: Holding the Center of a Mountain Fortress
Fellow Herodotans —
The article below comes from Stratfor, who describe themselves as the leading online publisher of geopolitical intelligence. I’m a subscriber and I find them always interesting, often surprising and never arrogant. Btw, they encourage distribution — so this isn’t illegal copying.
The below analysis is typical of their view of the geopolitical world as deeply dependent upon geography per se. And, as it turns out, highly relevant to what we’re reading right now.
Marc Segan
*********************
Subject: The Geopolitics of Iran: Holding the Center of a Mountain Fortress
Strategic Forecasting, Inc. —————————
THE GEOPOLITICS OF IRAN: HOLDING THE CENTER OF A MOUNTAIN FORTRESS
Editor’s Note: This is the third in a series of monographs by Stratfor founder George Friedman on the geopolitics of countries that are currently critical in world affairs. Click here for a printable PDF of the monograph in its entirety.
By George Friedman
To understand Iran, you must begin by understanding how large it is. Iran is the 17th largest country in world. It measures 1,684,000 square kilometers. That means that its territory is larger than the combined territories of France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Portugal – Western Europe. Iran is the 16th most populous country in the world, with about 70 million people. Its population is larger than the populations of either France or the United Kingdom.
Under the current circumstances, it might be useful to benchmark Iran against Iraq or Afghanistan. Iraq is 433,000 square kilometers, with about 25 million people, so Iran is roughly four times as large and three times as populous. Afghanistan is about 652,000 square kilometers, with a population of about 30 million. One way to look at it is that Iran is 68 percent larger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined, with 40 percent more population.
More important are its topographical barriers. Iran is defined, above all, by its mountains, which form its frontiers, enfold its cities and describe its historical heartland. To understand Iran, you must understand not only how large it is but also how mountainous it is.
Iran’s most important mountains are the Zagros. They are a southern extension of the Caucasus, running about 900 miles from the northwestern border of Iran, which adjoins Turkey and Armenia, southeast toward Bandar Abbas on the Strait of Hormuz. The first 150 miles of Iran’s western border is shared with Turkey. It is intensely mountainous on both sides. South of Turkey, the mountains on the western side of the border begin to diminish until they disappear altogether on the Iraqi side. From this point onward, south of the Kurdish regions, the land on the Iraqi side is increasingly flat, part of the Tigris-Euphrates basin. The Iranian side of the border is mountainous, beginning just a few miles east of the border. Iran has a mountainous border with Turkey, but mountains face a flat plain along the Iraq border. This is the historical frontier between Persia – the name of Iran until the early 20th century – and Mesopotamia (“land between two rivers”), as southern I raq is called.
The one region of the western border that does not adhere to this model is in the extreme south, in the swamps where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers join to form the Shatt al-Arab waterway. There the Zagros swing southeast, and the southern border between Iran and Iraq zigzags south to the Shatt al-Arab, which flows south 125 miles through flat terrain to the Persian Gulf. To the east is the Iranian province of Khuzestan, populated by ethnic Arabs, not Persians. Given the swampy nature of the ground, it can be easily defended and gives Iran a buffer against any force from the west seeking to move along the coastal plain of Iran on the Persian Gulf.
Running east along the Caspian Sea are the Elburz Mountains, which serve as a mountain bridge between the Caucasus-Zagros range and Afghan mountains that eventually culminate in the Hindu Kush. The Elburz run along the southern coast of the Caspian to the Afghan border, buffering the Karakum Desert in Turkmenistan. Mountains of lesser elevations then swing down along the Afghan and Pakistani borders, almost to the Arabian Sea.
Iran has about 800 miles of coastline, roughly half along the eastern shore of the Persian Gulf, the rest along the Gulf of Oman. Its most important port, Bandar Abbas, is located on the Strait of Hormuz. There are no equivalent ports along the Gulf of Oman, and the Strait of Hormuz is extremely vulnerable to interdiction. Therefore, Iran is not a major maritime or naval power. It is and always has been a land power.
The center of Iran consists of two desert plateaus that are virtually uninhabited and uninhabitable. These are the Dasht-e Kavir, which stretches from Qom in the northwest nearly to the Afghan border, and the Dasht-e Lut, which extends south to Balochistan. The Dasht-e Kavir consists of a layer of salt covering thick mud, and it is easy to break through the salt layer and drown in the mud. It is one of the most miserable places on earth.
Iran’s population is concentrated in its mountains, not in its lowlands, as with other countries. That’s because its lowlands, with the exception of the southwest and the southeast (regions populated by non-Persians), are uninhabitable. Iran is a nation of 70 million mountain dwellers. Even its biggest city, Tehran, is in the foothills of towering mountains. Its population is in a belt stretching through the Zagros and Elbroz mountains on a line running from the eastern shore of the Caspian to the Strait of Hormuz. There is a secondary concentration of people to the northeast, centered on Mashhad. The rest of the country is lightly inhabited and almost impassable because of the salt-mud flats.
If you look carefully at a map of Iran, you can see that the western part of the country – the Zagros Mountains – is actually a land bridge for southern Asia. It is the only path between the Persian Gulf in the south and the Caspian Sea in the north. Iran is the route connecting the Indian subcontinent to the Mediterranean Sea. But because of its size and geography, Iran is not a country that can be easily traversed, much less conquered.
The location of Iran’s oil fields is critical here, since oil remains its most important and most strategic export. Oil is to be found in three locations: The southwest is the major region, with lesser deposits along the Iraqi border in the north and one near Qom. The southwestern oil fields are an extension of the geological formation that created the oil fields in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq. Hence, the region east of the Shatt al-Arab is of critical importance to Iran. Iran has the third largest oil reserves in the world and is the world’s fourth largest producer. Therefore, one would expect it to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world. It isn’t.
Iran has the 28th largest economy in the world but ranks only 71st in per capita gross domestic product (as expressed in purchasing power). It ranks with countries like Belarus or Panama. Part of the reason is inefficiencies in the Iranian oil industry, the result of government policies. But there is a deeper geographic problem. Iran has a huge population mostly located in rugged mountains. Mountainous regions are rarely prosperous. The cost of transportation makes the development of industry difficult. Sparsely populated mountain regions are generally poor. Heavily populated mountain regions, when they exist, are much poorer.
Iran’s geography and large population make substantial improvements in its economic life difficult. Unlike underpopulated and less geographically challenged countries such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Iran cannot enjoy any shift in the underlying weakness of its economy brought on by higher oil prices and more production. The absence of inhabitable plains means that any industrial plant must develop in regions wh
ere the cost of infrastructure tends to undermine the benefits. Oil keeps Iran from sinking even deeper, but it alone cannot catapult Iran out of its condition.
The Broad Outline
Iran is a fortress. Surrounded on three sides by mountains and on the fourth by the ocean, with a wasteland at its center, Iran is extremely difficult to conquer. This was achieved once by the Mongols, who entered the country from the northeast. The Ottomans penetrated the Zagros Mountains and went northeast as far as the Caspian but made no attempt to move into the Persian heartland.
Iran is a mountainous country looking for inhabitable plains. There are none to the north, only more mountains and desert, or to the east, where Afghanistan’s infrastructure is no more inviting. To the south there is only ocean. What plains there are in the region lie to the west, in modern-day Iraq and historical Mesopotamia and Babylon. If Iran could dominate these plains, and combine them with its own population, they would be the foundation of Iranian power.
Indeed, these plains were the foundation of the Persian Empire. The Persians originated in the Zagros Mountains as a warrior people. They built an empire by conquering the plains in the Tigris and Euphrates basin. They did this slowly, over an extended period at a time when there were no demarcated borders and they faced little resistance to the west. While it was difficult for a lowland people to attack through mountains, it was easier for a mountain-based people to descend to the plains. This combination of population and fertile plains allowed the Persians to expand.
Iran’s attacking north or northwest into the Caucasus is impossible in force. The Russians, Turks and Iranians all ground to a halt along the current line in the 19th century; the country is so rugged that movement could be measured in yards rather than miles. Iran could attack northeast into Turkmenistan, but the land there is flat and brutal desert. The Iranians could move east into Afghanistan, but this would involve more mountain fighting for land of equally questionable value. Attacking west, into the Tigris and Euphrates river basin, and then moving to the Mediterranean, would seem doable. This was the path the Persians took when they created their empire and pushed all the way to Greece and Egypt.
In terms of expansion, the problem for Iran is its mountains. They are as effective a container as they are a defensive bulwark. Supporting an attacking force requires logistics, and pushing supplies through the Zagros in any great numbers is impossible. Unless the Persians can occupy and exploit Iraq, further expansion is impossible. In order to exploit Iraq, Iran needs a high degree of active cooperation from Iraqis. Otherwise, rather than converting Iraq’s wealth into political and military power, the Iranians would succeed only in being bogged down in pacifying the Iraqis.
In order to move west, Iran would require the active cooperation of conquered nations. Any offensive will break down because of the challenges posed by the mountains in moving supplies. This is why the Persians created the type of empire they did. They allowed conquered nations a great deal of autonomy, respected their culture and made certain that these nations benefited from the Persian imperial system. Once they left the Zagros, the Persians could not afford to pacify an empire. They needed the wealth at minimal cost. And this has been the limit on Persian/Iranian power ever since. Recreating a relationship with the inhabitants of the Tigris and Euphrates basin – today’s Iraq – is enormously difficult. Indeed, throughout most of history, the domination of the plains by Iran has been impossible. Other imperial powers – Alexandrian Greece, Rome, the Byzantines, Ottomans, British and Americans – have either seized the plains themselves or used them as a neutral buff er against the Persians.
Underlying the external problems of Iran is a severe internal problem. Mountains allow nations to protect themselves. Completely eradicating a culture is difficult. Therefore, most mountain regions of the world contain large numbers of national and ethnic groups that retain their own characteristics. This is commonplace in all mountainous regions. These groups resist absorption and annihilation. Although a Muslim state with a population that is 55 to 60 percent ethnically Persian, Iran is divided into a large number of ethnic groups. It is also divided between the vastly dominant Shia and the minority Sunnis, who are clustered in three areas of the country — the northeast, the northwest and the southeast. Any foreign power interested in Iran will use these ethnoreligious groups to create allies in Iran to undermine the power of the central government.
Thus, any Persian or Iranian government has as its first and primary strategic interest maintaining the internal integrity of the country against separatist groups. It is inevitable, therefore, for Iran to have a highly centralized government with an extremely strong security apparatus. For many countries, holding together its ethnic groups is important. For Iran it is essential because it has no room to retreat from its current lines and instability could undermine its entire security structure. Therefore, the Iranian central government will always face the problem of internal cohesion and will use its army and security forces for that purpose before any other.
Geopolitical Imperatives
For most countries, the first geographical imperative is to maintain internal cohesion. For Iran, it is to maintain secure borders, then secure the country internally. Without secure borders, Iran would be vulnerable to foreign powers that would continually try to manipulate its internal dynamics, destabilize its ruling regime and then exploit the resulting openings. Iran must first define the container and then control what it contains. Therefore, Iran’s geopolitical imperatives:
1. Control the Zagros and Elburz mountains. These constitute the Iranian heartland and the buffers against attacks from the west and north.
2. Control the mountains to the east of the Dasht-e Kavir and Dasht-e Lut, from Mashhad to Zahedan to the Makran coast, protecting Iran’s eastern frontiers with Pakistan and Afghanistan. Maintain a line as deep and as far north and west as possible in the Caucasus to limit Turkish and Russian threats. These are the secondary lines.
3. Secure a line on the Shatt al-Arab in order to protect the western coast of Iran on the Persian Gulf.
4. Control the divergent ethnic and religious elements in this box.
5. Protect the frontiers against potential threats, particularly major powers from outside the region.
Iran has achieved four of the five basic goals. It has created secure frontiers and is in control of the population inside the country. The greatest threat against Iran is the one it has faced since Alexander the Great – that posed by major powers outside the region. Historically, before deep-water navigation, Iran was the direct path to India for any Western power. In modern times, the Zagros remain the eastern anchor of Turkish power. Northern Iran blocks Russian expansion. And, of course, Iranian oil reserves make Iran attractive to contemporary great powers.
There are two traditional paths into Iran. The northeastern region is vulnerable to Central Asian powers while the western approach is the most-often used (or attempted). A direct assault through the Zagros Mountains is not feasible, as Saddam Hussein discovered in 1980. However, manipulating the ethnic groups inside Iran is possible. The British, for example, based in Iraq, were able to manipulate internal political divisions in Iran, as did the Soviets, to the point that Iran virtually lost its national sovereignty during World War II.
The greatest threat to Iran in recent centuries has been a foreign power dominating Iraq -Ottoman or British – and extending its power eastward not through main force but through su
bversion and political manipulation. The view of the contemporary Iranian government toward the United States is that, during the 1950s, it assumed Britain’s role of using its position in Iraq to manipulate Iranian politics and elevate the shah to power.
The 1980-1988 war between Iran and Iraq was a terrific collision of two states, causing several million casualties on both sides. It also demonstrated two realities. The first is that a determined, well-funded, no-holds-barred assault from Mesopotamia against the Zagros Mountains will fail (albeit at an atrocious cost to the defender). The second is that, in the nation-state era, with fixed borders and standing armies, the logistical challenges posed by the Zagros make a major attack from Iran into Iraq equally impossible. There is a stalemate on that front. Nevertheless, from the Iranian point of view, the primary danger of Iraq is not direct attack but subversion. It is not only Iraq that worries them. Historically, Iranians also have been concerned about Russian manipulation and manipulation by the British and Russians through Afghanistan.
The Current Situation
For the Iranians, the current situation has posed a dangerous scenario similar to what they faced from the British early in the 20th century. The United States has occupied, or at least placed substantial forces, to the east and the west of Iran, in Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is not concerned about these troops invading Iran. That is not a military possibility. Iran’s concern is that the United States will use these positions as platforms to foment ethnic dissent in Iran.
Indeed, the United States has tried to do this in several regions. In the southeast, in Balochistan, the Americans have supported separatist movements. It has also done this among the Arabs of Khuzestan, at the northern end of the Persian Gulf. And it has tried to manipulate the Kurds in northwestern Iran. (There is some evidence to suggest that the United States has used Azerbaijan as a launchpad to foment dissent among the Iranian Azeris in the northwestern part of the country.)
The Iranian counter to all this has several dimensions:
1. Maintain an extremely powerful and repressive security capability to counter these moves. In particular, focus on deflecting any intrusions in the Khuzestan region, which is not only the most physically vulnerable part of Iran but also where much of Iran’s oil reserves are located. This explains clashes such as the seizure of British sailors and constant reports of U.S. special operations teams in the region.
2. Manipulate ethnic and religious tensions in Iraq and Afghanistan to undermine the American positions there and divert American attention to defensive rather than offensive goals.
3. Maintain a military force capable of protecting the surrounding mountains so that major American forces cannot penetrate.
4. Move to create a nuclear force, very publicly, in order to deter attack in the long run and to give Iran a bargaining chip for negotiations in the short term.
The heart of Iranian strategy is as it has always been, to use the mountains as a fortress. So long as it is anchored in those mountains, it cannot be invaded. Alexander succeeded and the Ottomans had limited success (little more than breaching the Zagros), but even the Romans and British did not go so far as to try to use main force in the region. Invading and occupying Iran is not an option.
For Iran, its ultimate problem is internal tensions. But even these are under control, primarily because of Iran’s security system. Ever since the founding of the Persian Empire, the one thing that Iranians have been superb at is creating systems that both benefit other ethnic groups and punish them if they stray. That same mindset functions in Iran today in the powerful Ministry of Intelligence and Security and the elite Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC). (The Iranian military is configured mainly as an infantry force, with the regular army and IRGC ground forces together totaling about 450,000 troops, larger than all other service branches combined.)
Iran is, therefore, a self-contained entity. It is relatively poor, but it has superbly defensible borders and a disciplined central government with an excellent intelligence and internal security apparatus. Iran uses these same strengths to destabilize the American position (or that of any extraregional power) around it. Indeed, Iran is sufficiently secure that the positions of surrounding countries are more precarious than that of Iran. Iran is superb at low-cost, low-risk power projection using its covert capabilities. It is even better at blocking those of others. So long as the mountains are in Iranian hands, and the internal situation is controlled, Iran is a stable state, but one able to pose only a limited external threat.
The creation of an Iranian nuclear program serves two functions. First, if successful, it further deters external threats. Second, simply having the program enhances Iranian power. Since the consequences of a strike against these facilities are uncertain and raise the possibility of Iranian attempts at interdiction of oil from the Persian Gulf, the strategic risk to the attacker’s economy discourages attack. The diplomatic route of trading the program for regional safety and power becomes more attractive than an attack against a potential threat in a country with a potent potential counter.
Iran is secure from conceivable invasion. It enhances this security by using two tactics. First, it creates uncertainty as to whether it has an offensive nuclear capability. Second, it projects a carefully honed image of ideological extremism that makes it appear unpredictable. It makes itself appear threatening and unstable. Paradoxically, this increases the caution used in dealing with it because the main option, an air attack, has historically been ineffective without a follow-on ground attack. If just nuclear facilities are attacked and the attack fails, Iranian reaction is unpredictable and potentially disproportionate. Iranian posturing enhances the uncertainty. The threat of an air attack is deterred by Iran’s threat of an attack against sea-lanes. Such attacks would not be effective, but even a low-probability disruption of the world’s oil supply is a risk not worth taking.
As always, the Persians face a major power prowling at the edges of their mountains. The mountains will protect them from main force but not from the threat of destabilization. Therefore, the Persians bind their nation together through a combination of political accommodation and repression. The major power will eventually leave. Persia will remain so long as its mountains stand.
Thucydides and the eclipse
Folks,
Member Erin McKean just sent this article from New Scientist about Thucydides and the eclipse.
Thanks, Erin!
Questions in advance of our Tuesday call on Phaedrus/Protagoras
Folks,
Here are some questions that may guide our discussion Tuesday night 8pm NYC time (5pm in California where I am now). I look forward to discussing the questions below (and the questions I should have asked).
Phil
—
Phaedrus
—
– Speeches
Phaedrus’ conceit is that it’s about these two speeches that Socrates gives at the beginning of the dialogue. The interesting philosophy seems to come following the speeches in analysis of them and in analysis of truth-content, knowledge, and so on. Having said that, however, what did you think about the speeches? How are we to read these speeches as 21st century westerners?
– First speech (starting page 511)
– Second speech (starting page 522)
What can we take from these? There are some surprisingly modern notions about relationships (build not on attraction but respect?), madness (there are two forms – one form being divinely inspired…pg 542) and, of course, lots of pre-christian imagery that cleary had a big impact on the new testament (see 525 – 525 especially for notions of falling from grace, wings, etc.)
Are these speeches only here to set the context for the discussion of knowledge that comes later or is there something important in the speeches themselves?
– Knowledge and writing
John Cooper says in his intro to Phaedrus that despite Socrates’ argument that knowledge can only be in souls not in writings (and his critique of much writing) that “reading such a dialogue [as Phaedrus] may be a good way of working to attain [knowledge].” What does Phaedrus teach about knowledge? Dialectics are here defined (page 543)…what does Plato mean by dialectics?
– Criticism of writing (page 552)
Socrates outlines a criticism of writing. How serious is this criticism? Is this Plato speaking – is it a warning for his students to not invest too much in writing? Or a warning to other writers to be careful of a certain hubris? In our 21st century world where writing a book seems to be more about a certification process (especially non-fiction) than about genuine knowledge sharing, Socrates’ criticisms seem to have a lot of validity. But what are we to think about his contention that reading others’ writing simply gives the “appearance of wisdom and not its reality.”?
– Head fakes
In football a head fake is when a player moves his head in one direction as if to go there, but runs in the other “faking out the opponent.” Throughout Plato there are lots of “head fakes” – moments where we believe the focus is in one area (speeches of love, for example) when in fact the main point seems to suddenly come from another direction. What were some of your favorite “head fakes” in Pheadrus?
—
Protagoras
—
I loved Phaedrus but loved Protagoras even more.
I savored each page of this dialogue.
We could certainly spend the whole call discussing this one dialogue (in fact, likely a whole week)…but given that we’ll have about 30 minutes perhaps come with some thoughts on the following:
– Virtue?
What is virtue? Do we care as much about virtue in the 21st century world as the Greeks seemed to? Perhaps one of the lessons of Protagoras is the degree to which the Greeks cared about how they conducted their public civic lives – so much so that they hotly debated virtue and whether it could be taught. What do you think? Can virtue be taught?
– Justice…courage…good life?
What is justice and its relationship to virtue? Protagoras and Socrates identify 5 separate (or not?) components of virtue. Protagoras says they are all similar except courage. What’s courage doing here at all? What’s the relationship between courage and virtue? Do you need courage to be virtuous? What do they say about that?
– Wisdom
What is wisdom and its relationship to virtue? can you be wise and lack virtue?
Warren Buffett likes to say that he looks for leaders who 1) have integrity; 2) are smart and 3)work hard. He then follows that by saying if you get #2 and #3 without #1 then you have found a dangerous leader and you get the likes of Enron. He would then argue that wisdom is possible without virtue but leads to terrible results. What do you think?
– Irrationality
Can intelligence save a person from acting irrationally? See page 782. This question is hotly debated now in a class I’m running on behavioral psychology and irrational/rational decision-making. What do you think?
– The debate itself
What is the arc of the debate between Protagoras and Socrates? What do you think about the debate about the debate format (can anyone say “presidential debates”?), the tension and eventual release of tension as both find some criticism and some praise.
In this dialogue – and long debate between Socrates and Protagoras – we see a Socrates who is not always right, who is a bit chastened, whose arrogance in some of his arguments is publicly addressed. I guess that some of the readers are finding this more engaging than some earlier dialogues where Socrates went unchallenged.
Thought you’d be interested in this
Dear Friends –
Attached is a pdf of a paper about…paper! I wanted to pass this along to my fellow bibliophiles. You may want to print it out instead of reading it on your computer – you’ll understand when you read it!
Looking forward to our call.
Kendall
Herodotus Shows Up Again
Team,
I was on one of my weekly business flights and I picked up a Discover Magazine for some light reading during take-off and landing when I’m not allowed to use my electronic work gadgets. I was reading an article on mummies that was fascinating and it turned out that the mummies they were digging up were of the Scythians! The article then went on to reference Herodotus. The interesting thing is that the evidence in these burial mounds supports the reports from Herodotus about the Scythians and their customs, including the sacrifices they did during funerals as well as their nomadic existence. I found an online link to the article so here it is if you’re interested.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/25-frozen-siberian-mummies-reveal-a-lost-civilization
May you all become rich as Croesus. ;-D
Jim


Plato, the housing crisis and probability theory
Folks,
Some additional thoughts in advance of our call tonight.
Why do we so often make short-sighted decisions that bring a little short-term pleasure and a lot of long-term misery? Why do we act so seemingly irrationally – i.e. against our own best interest (assuming our best interest is to maximize pleasure and happiness). Why in Socrates’ words are we “overcome by pleasure” and what could that possibly mean?
In the concluding pages of Protagoras, Socrates says some interesting things about virtue that end up relating to these questions above and thus to our current housing crisis.
Socrates is following an argument – somewhat against his own position (i.e. against the position that virtue is not teachable) – whereby he deconstructs virtue in attempting to understand the statement “overcome by pleasure.” He deconstructs virtue to the point that he says it’s knowledge and not just any knowledge but the knowledge of the art of measurement.
What?
Socrates challenges the statement that we do bad things because “we are overcome by pleasure.” He says effectively that it doesn’t make sense. Why? Because something pleasurable is good or beneficial so how could we do something “bad” because it’s pleasurable to us?
We all know many instances where we as individuals and societies do “bad” things (overeat, overdrink, splurge on subprime mortgages, etc.) that feel good in the moment but cause a lot of pain in the long-term.
Socrates knows this goes on – he simply challenges that we can explain it by “being overcome by pleasure.”
He says that makes no sense.
He says the only reasonable thing that statement could mean is that we do something in the short-term that feels a little good but in the long-term creates much more misery or disease – so much more that the future pain outweighs the present pleasure. And if the future pain does outweigh the present pleasure, then that thing we have done was not done for the sake of pleasure (pleasure being so outweighed pain) but for another reason.
He also points out that short-term pain can be chosen for long-term benefit – i.e. people might elect to go through the pain of surgery so that they could attain better long-term health.
[Note that much of this part of the dialogue takes place on page 785.]
So, where is he going with this? To an interesting place. He basically concludes that we do bad long-term things not for the pleasure of the moment but because we are bad at measuring.
Bad at measuring? What?
He concludes that the good life lived means one where we can rightly choose between pleasure and pain – whenever or however those might appear (present, future, etc.).
And if choosing between these things is critical to a good life, then being able to effectively measure the relative amounts of pain and pleasure, present and future is the key.
“Well, then, my good people: Since it has turned out that our salvation in life depends on the right choice of pleasure and pains, be they more or fewer, greater or lesser, farther or nearer, doesn’t our salvation seem first of all, to be measurement, which is the study of relative excess and deficiency and equality?”
If you are able to measure well, then you are able to easily differentiate between a little happiness now (a 3 year adjustable rate mortgage for a home above the price you can afford) and a lot of happiness later (a smaller home but with a fixed mortgage that allows you to continue living in that home for many years).
Socrates never, however, addresses the one most important flaw in this argument – a flaw that every ordinary person knows is there – i.e. that the measurement is trivial when compared to the problem that “later” brings..
If you are trading a little happiness now for more happiness later, then aren’t you trading a known quantity (happiness now – however small) for an unknown quantity (the probability of a future happiness, however great – is still an unknown in the future)?
Even if I grant that the future quantity is bigger, then doesn’t the fact that it’s in the future mean it should be discounted? And so wouldn’t the rational choice be to choose the known quantity now?
That does seem like a rational choice.
But before giving up on Socrates’ argument there is one more place to go – and that is to probability theory. If we are talking about measuring the size of a possible future happiness, then we are dealing with probability theory – which does give us a way to measure the future.
Without going into probability theory here (we can discuss on the phone or at another time), I would argue that by adding probability theory then Socrates’ is right.
The key to making good decisions – decisions that benefit us and our larger society – is measurement – i.e. measuring the relative happiness vs. misery of any given set of decisions or trade-offs.
Behavioral economics and probability theory agree with Plato here and provide an intellectual framework for managing good decisions despite our tendency to always favor a “bird in the hand vs. two in the bush.”
It turns out that two in the bush can be better as long as we can effectively probabilistically measure those two birds in the bush.
Most American consumers would be much happier today – and our economy stronger – if we had not traded those two birds in the bush for the one weak subprime bird in the hand.
Phil
15. July 2008 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Plato | Tags: Plato | 1 comment