Herodotus 2008 Schedule of Calls
For The Landmark Herodotus reading group, you’ll need to purchase this copy of the book: http://tinyurl.com/3x3rjh
All calls are Mondays @ 8pm NY Time/5pm California Time
1-866-628-8620
code: 112431#
Call 1: Intro – Mon Mar 17
Call 2: Book 1 – Mon Apr 7
Call 3: Book 2 and 3 – Mon May 5
Call 4: Books 4 and 5 – Mon June 2
Call 5: Book 6 – Mon June 30
Call 6: Book 7 – Mon Aug 11
Call 7: Book 8 & 9 – Mon Sept 8
November 2007 Team of Rivals – audio recording
Here’s the audio recording for the Team of Rivals November call. Listen online ordownload the mp3 file and listen to it as a podcast on your ipod.
Matt Domenici (SW)
Matt joined HP in 2005, after over 10 years in Fortune 500 technologycompanies, focusing on the Internet and New Media. He is presently theDirector – Product at Snapfish, leading the product team for theSnapfish core site.
Matt spent eight years at Apple where he started in the Businessdivision, specializing in rich media technologies. He later moved tothe Education and then Consumer division, leading the development ofboutique online stores. Following a successful launch of the programthroughout the Company’s core markets, he took a leadership positionfor the core global consumer site.
When not at work, Matt is an avid pilot and traveler.
Mark Towfiq (P2008)
Mark Towfiq was most recently the VP of Englneering and Product Development for Flock, the Social Web Browser. Previously he was the VP of Engineering at Walmart.com and then NexTag. He has a BSE in Computer Science from Princeton University. He’s currently cooking something else up…but won’t say what!
Book 6 Thucydides – audio recording
Here’s the audio recording for the Thucydides November 2007 book 6 call. Listen online or download the mp3 file and listen to it as apodcast on your ipod.
Thucydides Book 5.26-6.105 Questions
The Melian Dialogue, the Rise of Alcibiades & the Sicilian Expedition
1. The Melian Dialogue – In one of the most enduring passages from Thudydides, Athens pressures Melos, a neutral Spartan island colony, to submit to Athenian imperial demands. A philosophical discussion ensues as emissaries on both sides negotiate the fate of Melos and, to some extent, the fate of Athens. The central topic is: what is justice? and what is justice between two Greek nations/city-states? How does each side define justice? and how is any definition of justice relevant to the present Melian situation?
Please consider the following quotes from Melian dialogue and their attendant questions. What other quotes struck you in particular?
Athenians to the Melians:
“The end of our empire, if end it should, does not frighten us: a rival empire like Sparta, even if Sparta was our real antagonist, is not so terrible to the vanquished as subjects who by themselves attack and overpower their rulers.” (5.91)
Since the Athenians sincerely believe that their superiority entitles them to define the terms of a treaty, why do they bother to carry on this dialogue with the Melians? Why is it to their interest?
Melians to the Athenians:
“How can you avoid making enemies of all existing neutrals who shall look at our case and conclude from it that one day or another you will attack them? And what is this but to make greater the enemies that you have already, and to force others to become so who would otherwise have never thought of it?” (5.98)
Aside from principle (as evidenced from the above quote), what do the Melians have to bargain with in their negotiation with the Athenians? How practical is the Melian assertion with respect to the Athenians’ assertion?
Athenians to the Melians:
“Well, you alone, as it seems to us, judging from these resolutions, regard what is future as more certain than what is before your eyes, and what is out of sight, in your eagerness, as already coming to pass.” (5.113)
The Athenians respond to the Melian resistance to their demands and point this out a few times in the dialogue. How is the Athenian position one which can be supported by their democracy? How are the Athenians really perceived by others? Are the Melians that far off the mark?
2. Argos challenges Spartan hegemony of the Peloponnesus. Sparta’s allies begin to waver in their loyalty to Sparta. In terms of diplomacy with the Peloponnesians, what is the difference between Argos with their democracy and Sparta with their monarchy? Do the Argives underestimate Sparta? Do the Argives underestimate Sparta’s allies? Why is Alcibiades so interested in Athens allying with Argos? How does Alcibiades influence the outcome of the battle around Mantinea? How did the outcome of the battle affect the relations between Athens and Sparta? (5.75, 5.80) How was the government of Argos affected?
Book 6 – The Sicilian Expedition pt. I
3. After describing in vivid detail the history of settlements on the island of Sicily, Thucydides tells us in 6.6.1: “Such is the list of the peoples, Hellenic and barbarian, inhabiting Sicily, and such the magnitude of the island which the Athenians were now bent upon invading; being ambitious in real truth of conquering the whole, although they had also the specious design of aiding their kindred and other allies on the island” (my emphasis). Perez Zagorin in his wonderful book Thucydides: An Introduction for the Common Reader, comments that the phrase “in real truth” is “the identical phrase, alethestate prophasis (the truest cause or reason), which he had previously used in 1.23 to explain the true cause of the war as a whole” (107-108). These strong words openly declare Athens’ motive for invading Sicily, according to Thucydides. How do these strong words relate to Thucydides’ earlier comments in Book I about the “true cause” or “real truth” of history?
4. What are the main points of Nicias’ speech? Alcibiades’ speech? How do any of these points relate to Pericles’ strategy outlined in Book 2? Does Nicias or Alcibiades represent the will of the Athenian people? Which of these two, if anyone, is continuing Pericles’ strategy? How do any of these points compare to the Athenian point of view in the Melian dialogue? Why does Nicias’ second speech to the Athenians backfire? Are there any similar historical parallels that cross your mind?
5. Even though Thucydides comments that Athens’ imperial ambitions are more selfish than benign, do we perceive any sympathy for Athens as well? How is Athens as a city-state portrayed as tragic?
6. Given that the defacement of the Hermae right before the Sicilian Expedition would argue against its success, why would Alcibiades of all people have defaced the Hermae? Could there be another explanation for this scandal?
7. After Thucydides introduces Hermocrates to us earlier in Book 4, we have gotten to know him a little bit. Should we accept Hermocrates in Book 6 as the ‘champion of Sicily’ or as an opportunist for his own city-state of Syracuse? Does the tete-a-tete between Hermocrates and Athenagoras in their speeches concerning the threat to Sicily in any way relate to the Athenian debate about launching the Sicilian Expedition?
8. How can Alcibiades, someone raised in Pericles’ house, justify his patriotism to Athens by defecting to Sparta? Given his previous arguments for Athens to go back to war with Sparta, why would Alcibiades want to help the Spartans at all now? What is Alcibiades’ attitude toward the democracy of Athens??
9. Even though most of the Sicilian cities feared the domination of Syracuse, why did they nevertheless refrain from joining Athens in the war? In addressing the Camarinaeans, does Hermocrates add to or change what he had previously said about Sicilian unity? How does Euphemus, the Athenian advocate, try to divide the Sicilians against each other in the Athenian interest? How are his words problematic for promoting Athenian democracy?
Dave Tan (SW)
Dave has over 12 years of global and interactive marketing experience. Dave began his marketing career at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York in 1995. Three years later, he moved to EMI Music Asia as International Marketing Manager where he was responsible for marketing international pop musicians throughout Asia. Dave returned to the U.S. in 1999 and joined the interactive industry first at EthnicGrocer.com as Direct Marketing Manager and then at BrassRing.com as their Online Marketing Manager.
In 2001, Dave joined Shure Incorporated (a leading manufacturer of professional audio equipment) as the eMarketing and Channel Marketing Manager in charge of web and e-commerce areas.
Then in 2004, Dave joined Chicago Tribune Interactive as their Interactive Marketing Manager where he is responsible for marketing, developing, and positioning their local Chicago websites. Today, as the Director of Marketing and Development, he continues to manage all interactive marketing, advertising development, ad production, product development, strategy, as well as business development for all Chicago Tribune Interactive sites.
Dave received his B.A. from Connecticut College and his MBA in Marketing from The Kellstadt School of Business at DePaul University.
Sheila Marcelo (SW)
Care.com is an online marketplace connecting people seeking care services with a national and local network of trusted providers. The company provides a simple and safe way for families and individuals to manage their care needs. Care.com offers a full breadth of subscription-based services – child care, pet care, senior care, tutoring, and soon other services – to address the lifecycle of specific care needs while providing free background checks and a suite of tools and resources for selecting the best care possible. The company was founded in 2006 and is funded by Matrix Partners, with a mission to help people achieve a more balanced life through smart care connections.
Formerly Sheila Marcelo was Vice President and General Manager at TheLadders, responsible for the overall user experience, creative and product management teams.
TheLadders.com publishes the largest collection of online job listings and information for professionals seeking employment with incomes from $100K to $500K. The companys tools, content and community help empower individuals to find the jobs most important to them and to direct their resumes to prospective employers. TheLadders.coms network of web-based products includes SalesLadder.com, FinanceLadder.com, MktgLadder.com, UpLadder.com and RecruitLadder.com.
Prior to joining TheLadders, Sheila was Vice President of Marketing and Product Management at Upromise, where she was part of the founding team and became responsible for overall user experience,member marketing, product management, creative and website production teams. She has also co-taught classes at Harvard Business School and worked at Monitor Consulting earlier in her career.
Sheila graduated with a BA in Economics and International Relations magna cum laudefrom Mount Holyoke College. She also holds a joint JD/MBA from Harvard Business School and Harvard Law School.Sheila graduated with honors and was the recipient of the Deans Award for her overall leadership and contributions to Harvard Business School.
Sheila lives in Weston, Massachusetts with her family. Sheilas interests outside business and technology include physical training, music, and movies.
Valerie Pearcy (SW)
Valerie Pearcy is the Director of Customer Care for Hoover’s, where she has worked since 1997. In her current role she works as part of Hoover’s Customer Experience department, with primary responsibility for customer education, feedback, and support. In this capacity she also advises the business on areas of improvement in the customer lifecycle to enhance the customer experience. Valerie has been a member of the core teams for many of the company’s major redesign and product launches since 2002.
Her other positions have involved overseeing Quality Assurance, third-party vendor relationships, and leading various editorial teams. Prior to joining Hoover’s, she worked in other fields including academic survey research. Valerie has a B.A. from Smith College and an M.A. from the University of Texas at Austin, where her graduate work focused on design history.
Wow
Hi Phil & Andre,
Last night I read book 7 of Thucydides, and I’m still reeling from the force of it. Best historical writing I have ever read. By far.
Andre, I found that quote you mentioned. In a letter, after talking about Cicero, Caesar, and other Romans and how great they were, Lord Macauley wrote:
But what are they all to the great Athenian? I do assure you that there is no prose composition in the world, not even the De Corona, which I place so high as the seventh book of Thucydides. It is the ne plus ultra of human art. I was delighted to find in Gray’s letters the other day this query to Wharton: “The retreat from Syracuse–Is it or is it not the finest thing you ever read in your life?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Babbington_Macaulay
Which raises the question: if you had to recommend to someone the books you thought were the best you’d ever read, what would they be? War & Peace for me, and Brothers Karamazov, and now books 6 & 7 of Thucydides. I’d be curious to know what makes your short list.
-Mark Casey
01. November 2007 by Arrian
Categories: Commentary, Thucydides | Tags: Commentary, Thucydides | 1 comment